I believe that the community will support this group. Especially if the season ticket holders group is giving a stake in the club.

How would that work?

Current season ticket holders all will belong to another entity, for giggles we can call them the "Tilt-O-Dineros", a non-profit entity.

*For every seat that is purchased, equals one vote. This body elects a board and president.

*This body assists the club in all aspects of team operations.

*Directs licensed products sales and distributions.

*Directs community activities.

*The president of this body serves a single year term, and can not be re-elected. But will always have a seat on the board, as long as he/she continues renewal of the season tickets.

*This body has first right of purchase of existing interest by all other parties in the club ownership.

I believe this type of operation could do wonders for the communities faith in the success of the program. There are Texarkana-like issues. Practice ice for one. This can be overcomed with a good plan, and the use of players that are not in school. Where the USHL has a bunch of 16,17's this club should be stocked with 18,19,& 20's.

As far as the team moving after a couple of seasons. Maybe not. If the club is comminity owned, winning, and active in the community, I am sure that 3-5,000 fans a game can be quickly attainable. The first year? Maybe not, but I would not count them out, we still have 9 months to deliver this baby.

Boog wrote:

I would tend to fall into the old crow mold more than a Jr fan. Having said that, I've grudgingly come around to the ideas of jrs. I think they are our only viable option so I hope they make it and hope the team is able to move up to as high a level as possible. I think Kev's history of hockey in Topeka was pretty spot on. I think the USHL was probably the best option from the getgo but we got the CHL and I for one enjoyed it. My problem with the USHL 'crows is the way the CHL 'crows were badmouthed after they were gone. It wasn't the best way to try and develop a fan base. Saying it was goon hockey and the guys really couldn't play just didn't jive with me when I thought about players like Blair Manning and Peter Brearley to name a few. Anyway, I hope the new team makes it, and has realistic expectations. If they do maybe everything else will be moot. (a little lawyer lingo there for Kev )

I think you are right on about the way the switch to the USHL was handled. Wise or otherwise, Topekans were first exposed to hockey in the CHL and that is what they grew to like. They did not see the USHL as anything more than an inferior style of hockey that forced its way in and forced the CHL out. Hopefully people realize now that the CHL just won't cut it in Topeka financially.

Lots of people preferred the CHL style of play to the USHL. It is different, no question. The CHL was rougher and had more characters on the ice putting on a show than the USHL did. The CHL was more of an entertainment league than the USHL. I don't mean that as a put down to the CHL at all, but the players in the USHL are there to get noticed by college scouts and advance their careers, which is not what most of the guys in the CHL are doing. The guys in the CHL certainly would like the opportunity to move up, but they are mostly there to have fun playing the game they love and extend their careers for a few years. Nothing wrong with that, but it produces a different type of game.

I preferred the style of the USHL which I thought was faster and had a more consistent effort, but I can see where others like the CHL. What fans need to realize (and I know I am preaching to the choir to the folks on here) is that it really is juniors or nothing in Topeka. We are not going to consistently pull the 3,500 fans per game that it takes to come close to breaking even in the CHL. If fans don't want to support the team we get, that's fine. I just hope they are not doing so in hopes that something better comes along. The best way to get something better (in terms of moving up in juniors) will be to show the guys that own this team that Topeka can support it.

You guys are slowly, but surely changing my mind. You have passion for and committment to, the game. Just prepared to understand that the WSHL may well be as good as it gets. Expecting it to be a 1 or 2 year thing, with a move up to Junior A, is the same as the people who followed the USHL team waiting for the CHL to come back. (BTW: Done in a more fan-friendly way up front, would the hockey fans there welcome back the USHL?)

Good luck to you all. I really mean that. I know what it's like to be without hockey. It sucks.

mctopeka wrote:

****NOTE....The following was posted on Marc Foster's hockey blog by mctopeka****At 11:31 AM, mctopeka said… There are already plans to build a 2000-3000 seat Ice rink in Topeka(Topeka Ice) and some of the fund raising has already taken place. What if the team plans on helping to raise more money to build this rink and then move there after the first or second year? What if the team might be planning to move up to Jr. A(NAHL) after they move to the new rink? Everything isn't always black and white, there are always shades of grey.

Yes, always areas of grey, for sure.

Please, tell us more.

Yes the majority of the hockey fans in Topeka would enjoy the USHL coming back. I think we should be more realistic though.

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

You guys are slowly, but surely changing my mind. You have passion for and committment to, the game. Just prepared to understand that the WSHL may well be as good as it gets. Expecting it to be a 1 or 2 year thing, with a move up to Junior A, is the same as the people who followed the USHL team waiting for the CHL to come back. (BTW: Done in a more fan-friendly way up front, would the hockey fans there welcome back the USHL?) Good luck to you all. I really mean that. I know what it's like to be without hockey. It sucks.

I would love to see the USHL back in Topeka, if it were run properly. By that, I do not mean to bash on Butch Johnson or anyone associated with the USHL in Topeka the first time. I do not question their desire to see the USHL succeed in Topeka or their efforts. What I think they failed at was understanding the market and what it would take to make the team successful here. They ran the team like most USHL teams are run, the problem is that Topeka is not the same kind of market that most USHL teams are in. You can't take the "if we build it, they will come" type attitude, it takes the team/front office getting out into the community and building support. I don't think the folks with the USHL Scarecrows realized that until it was too late.

One big difference between thinking our thinking that we may end up going Junior A in a few years and the thinking that the USHL may give way back to the CHL is that we will still support the Junior B team. If that is what sticks around, then that is what I will support any way I can, and I know there are enough like me to make the team successful. In the whole CHL/USHL fiasco, fans were not only refusing to support the team, but openly bashing everying about the USHL at every opportunity in an effort to drive the casual fan away from wanting to attend the games. They refused to support what was there, in hopes that something else would come in once it failed. We are wanting to support what is here, in hopes that maybe we can show that Topeka can support a move up the ladder. Whether it happens or not, it will be great to have hockey back in town.

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

mctopeka wrote: ****NOTE....The following was posted on Marc Foster's hockey blog by mctopeka****At 11:31 AM, mctopeka said… There are already plans to build a 2000-3000 seat Ice rink in Topeka(Topeka Ice) and some of the fund raising has already taken place. What if the team plans on helping to raise more money to build this rink and then move there after the first or second year? What if the team might be planning to move up to Jr. A(NAHL) after they move to the new rink? Everything isn't always black and white, there are always shades of grey. Yes, always areas of grey, for sure. Please, tell us more.

I can't. Yet.

I think Topeka would take the USHL back in a heartbeat with the right ownership/management team. I'm willing to give the new group a try, and hopefully in time they can move the team to a higher level(NAHL). If yet another team is willing to take a chance on Topeka then Topeka needs to be willing to step up and support it. With the recognizable names I believe we've got a great chance. Hopefully Daniel Skywalker will bring harmony to the force and rid the Topeka Empire of the evil Darth Chen once and for all.

Last edited by Boog on Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Keep in mind one very important fact here: This is NOT a done deal yet. It could still turn sour. I hope it doesn't, but I hate to see anyone get their hopes so high, only to have them dashed in the end. I know the feeling all too well and it's not good.

If there is one thing we as Topeka Hockey Fans know and understand and have come to enjoy is DISAPPOINTMENT, and yet we still keep our hopes up.

That is certainly true. Nothing is set until the contract is signed (or maybe even until the skates hit the ice).

However, both sides have been working seriously enough on this that I think there is definitely room for some serious optimism here. I think this deal will be done in the next couple of weeks. This is certainly less than a done deal, but way more than just a situation where a team is just curious about Topeka.

I'd say that the Tilt have a pair of aces in thier hand...so the bet would have to be on them. Unless the USHL or even the NAHL come to the table with a lot of cash on hand, the Tilt will be playing in Topeka. I'd hate for those two leagues to get into a battle of high stakes with a couple of pros. How much has Gavin won? Like $17 Million? I think that is going to trump just about anything else that anyone else can put on the table. Who might be the wildcard? Kelly Chase? Kelly has access to some serious money, but I do not think anyone wants to hit the table with Gavin.

We are hopeful this can be finalized and put to bed within a couple of weeks. We are however still keeping our fingers crossed.

Stephen Heisler wrote:

How much has Gavin won? Like $17 Million? I think that is going to trump just about anything else that anyone else can put on the table. Who might be the wildcard? Kelly Chase? Kelly has access to some serious money, but I do not think anyone wants to hit the table with Gavin.

Stephen,
Winning money at cards doesn't make anyone a businessman. Winning at cards requires skill, as well as luck. A successful hockey franchise requires not only sufficient capital, but someone who knows how to run the business side of things. I don't think having a skill at cards requires a business degree, just like winning power ball doesn't.

I want hockey to work for the people in Topeka. Unfortunately, I am beginning to belive workable hockey does not come in a package to be forwarded from Tucson.

JrHckyFn,
The hockey part is the easy part. Law has proven his ability, far beyond expectations, in two different divisions. It is the business side of the game that I find interesting.

So far, I like what I see. The wallet is listening. Mr Smith has the cabbage to properly fund this team on the front end. Properly managed, the return on investment could be awesome.

Stephen you would be correct on the business side. I can for a fact tell you the Topeka Business Community is backing this team like they haven't done in the past. That fact is extremely important seeing as how the team gets the revenue from the advertisments, (ie. Dasher Boards, On Ice Logos, Gameday PA Announcements, Merchandise sales). Right there you are looking at enough to run a team in this League or the NAHL. That doesn't even include Ticket Revenues or Player Fees. So someone saying this team can't make it here just isn't aware of the financial side of this sport.

High School Haters

I have no doubt that this ownership group can come in and get the job done. Same thing that has been said about the other 3-4 before them. However, being a fan of hockey at all levels, I have attended many high school games from the Twin Cities to Michigan and up and down the East Coast. I have also attended WSHL games including one road game of the Tilt. If Topeka wouldn't support the USHL because they didn't like high school hockey or the fact that the players weren't as polished as the "pro" team before them, it will not take them long to form a negative opinion of Jr. B hockey.

Just as the USHL is a developmental league, the WSHL and other Jr. B teams are developmental for the lesser players. Maybe 3-4 players per team are good enough to make it farther up the chain, but that is about it. I would bet that most major high-school teams in Minnesota, Wisconsin or Michigan would defeat any WSHL team. The proof is in the pudding as most USHL teams take kids from HS or NAHL, rarely from a Jr.B team.

I am excited Topeka is getting a team. However, I wouldn't bet on the 1000 fans they have left there embracing this if they didn't like the USHL.

That's just it those 1200-1500 fans did like the USHL. It was those other 2000 or so Pro or nothing fans that didn't like the USHL.

Has anyone considered just how many fans it takes to make a Junior B team financially viable? The Tilt are currently pulling in less than 100 fans per game, and I do not believe they are getting much of anything in the way of advertising revenue.

Topeka drew about 1,800 fans per game in the USHL. If they even get 1/2 of that now with the WSHL, this team should easily make money. You do not need 3,000, 2,000 or even 1,000 fans per game to make a Junior B team work.

Personally, I think Topeka's average attendance in the WSHL will be around 1,000 to 1,500 the first year, depending on how hard things are pushed (ticket packages, marketing, pricing, etc.). 2,000 is not out of the question depending on how entertaining the games are.

I seriously bet there are less than 100 people in Topeka that know the difference between the USHL and the WSHL. Of those, I bet almost all of them don't care, they want to support hockey. Most of the people that refused to support the USHL (the 1,000 or 1,500 difference between the CHL days and the USHL days) did no do so because of the level of play, it was more the style of play (less fighting, line brawls, etc.) and because they did not want to watch amateurs instead of pros. I don't think there will be a huge difference in terms of support between the USHL and the WSHL.

Let me let you all in on a little secret. Take the word "junior" out of your vocabulary. Do this and it will do wonders in your market.

This is another reason I hope this team stays away from kids that are in High School. Side note. Want a serious winner on the ice? Take away that other nasty phrase "player fee". You do not nned it, so forget about it. Put a dominate winner on the ice, and the fans will do more then make up for the difference.

Other areas to cut back. Transportation. See that $250K bus over there? Wave at it as it goes by. Break out the motorhome rental and 15 pass vans with the uhaul type trailer for equipment. See that USHL front office with 20 folks on the payroll? Wave at that too, that sure is pretty, but not for me. Give me a pair of closets in the arena with high speed net access and a place for a fridge. I want the sales staff to work from a virtual office, and on the streets. I want a ticket kiosk in the biggest mall with 4 flat screens rolling tape on a loop and a laptop with access to close season ticket and game day sales. Lean, mean, and addicted to the green. Hungry, greedy, folks looking out for number one and feeding thier families with the results. Give the toys, the tools, and the menu to get the job done and you will see one heck of lot more then 1,000 in the seats. I think 2 and 3,000 is very attainable.

If the season ticket holders get more then just butt space for thier money, they get ownership, that is a product that can be moved, and moved quickly.