Man, never saw this coming.

Neither did we but luck was on our side for once and we were able to stop this. I can't speak for the Expo but I think we were close to a deal. He would have had to have some up front money but was close to a deal.

Old Crows Fan wrote:

Man, never saw this coming.

I'm curious what it is you would like to see happen in Topeka concerning hockey.

Are you hoping another CHL (or other professional league) team comes in?

Are you hoping for a junior team?

Are you hoping that no hockey ever returns in any form?

being from Wichita... that is involved with someone who has family in Topeka... I am hoping for hockey of some kind in Topeka... 2 fold... 1, so I can go see more hockey... 2, so I can see you guys more often.

Hey Kev - What do I want? I want someone to actually think when approaching a team to put on the ice in Topeka. Not for ME, but for all of Topeka I would like to see a strong hockey team that could be financially sound WITH good management. It seems that the Expo / County are so aggressive to use the ice they grab at anything. I read this blog below and it only proves what I am saying. Look what we almost had land in our laps! I'm glad you are so concerned with what "I" want. I really like the "No team at all" option... You dont know what to post since the Tilt isnt coming so you try to spin your anger off on me. Like I said, we need quality hockey with QUALITY management and ownership. All I have seen is as soon as everyone hears that hockey may come back to Topeka, they attack those that question the team, their management, their finances, etc.. Just because we question doesnt mean we dont want hockey. Please read this blog and tell me how long this would have lasted in T-Town.


From Fosters Blog:

Tiltdad said...
To those interested,

I just had a very interesting phone call with Mr. Ron White. For those of you that don't know, Ron is the commissionaire of the league. Ron confirmed that over $150,000 was in the Tilt's account early in the year but was recklessly spent. With that confirmed, I had to ask Mr.White what the other teams budgets are to successfully operate throughout the year? He confirmed and I quote, “An average annual budget for a Junior B team in the WSHL is $150,000”. With over $150,000 spent, you have to question why the Tilt is out of money only 4 months into the season.

Lets not kid ourselves. For the people that know Jon, we all know the truth on where he spent the money. All I can say right now is that my nose is sniffling and my groin is burning wondering where that money has gone!! Mr.Mcwilliams, are you going out tonight? Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night....it appears to be a blizzard at Jon’s house in Tucson. (BOYS – PLUG YOUR EARS) To top it off, he has a 10 cute little asian Elves riding his sleigh.

All I can say is that despite the situation, I'm very happy my son is no longer associated in any way to this "boy" named Jon McWilliams.

7:07 PM, December 06, 2006
...........................................................................................................

Inside source tells me this Tiltdad is a former Policeman and does Private Investigations now. Jon will pay for what he did to those kids their parents and the city of Tucson and almost did to Topeka.
_________________
Does anyone have an extra $200,000 sitting around that I can borrow to start a hockey team? I can pay you back in two years.[quote][/quote]

I wasn't spinning any anger off on you, I was asking you an honest question - what is it you are hoping for in Topeka? I'm not in the least bit angry about the Tucson deal falling apart, I'm glad we dodged that bullet. I've read Marc's blog and I know exactly what was going on with that deal and how close we came to getting a bad situation. I also know that people are still working on bringing in another team and have shifted my focus to trying to do anything I can to help make that happen.

You seem to be completely against the notion of a junior team, yet at the same time you want something that will work long term in Topeka. I think Topeka has shown that it cannot support a professional team long term, so I don't get where you are coming from.

I would hope that we both want the same thing - the highest level of hockey in Topeka that can support long term. I would have no problem with a CHL team or some other professional team back in Topeka, except for the fact that I do not think Topeka is big enough to support one. I know we did it the first two years the Crows were here, but I don't see that level of support ever coming back.

I guess I could understand the criticism of the Tucson deal now, but you were completely against this deal before you knew anything about the ownership group or the management of the team. The second it was announced that Tucson was considering coming to Topeka, you said that it would fail. Your condemnation of this team had nothing to do with how this team was run, it was based solely on the fact that it is juniors.

So again, an honest question, what is it you are wanting in Topeka? Is a professional team all that you will support? Is a junior that that has a quality owner and quality management something you would support? Or would you rather have nothing come back? That last question option is a serious one - I have heard more than one person say that they would rather not see any hockey come back to Topeka because they just think it would fail again.

We would all like to see a strong and financially stable team move here. The Expo/County didn't go looking for this team we(Topeka Hockey "07) did, and we are responsible for what transpired after that. No contracts were signed and luckily for us no money exchanged hands. We(Topeka Hockey '07) contacted the WSHL League office when we first started talking to Mr. MacWilliams, and was told the Tucson team was in good standing. The Expo also called Mr. White, the WSHL Commissioner, and was told the same thing. I don't know how much more diligence we could have shown. No one could have forseen this disaster coming. As I said luckily we were contacted by friends and were told about this before any permanent damage could be done to our city.
As far as attacks go I haven't seen anyone attacking anyone about what they think. You never did ask about the Team, their managment, their finances, etc. You did however say that you don't like Junior Hockey and would prefer a Professional Team. We do know with hindsight, that team with those skeletons, wouldn't work for the Topeka hockey market. We know we only have one shot at this so we are trying to find and good, stable owner. You have also neglected to say this post was from me to the fans in Topeka telling them what happened. I will not make excuses nor will I appologize for trying to make Topeka a better place to live by giving it more options for entertainment. We will still maintain our efforts to bring Hockey back to Topeka with or without your support.

[quote]So again, an honest question, what is it you are wanting in Topeka? Is a professional team all that you will support? Is a junior that that has a quality owner and quality management something you would support? Or would you rather have nothing come back? That last question option is a serious one - I have heard more than one person say that they would rather not see any hockey come back to Topeka because they just think it would fail again.[/quote]

[quote]What do I want? I want someone to actually think when approaching a team to put on the ice in Topeka. Not for ME, but for all of Topeka I would like to see a strong hockey team that could be financially sound WITH good management.[/quote]

I really dont know what more you want me to say. I would love to see hockey return to Topeka, what ever level as long as someone actually researched the team and found it as a viable product. What I saw from the Tilt from the start was a lost cause. Terrible attendance, and what I read on other blogs was they were to tank. I beleive people want hockey so bad in Topeka when someone like me says anything negative about hockey they are labeled that they never want to see hockey back in Topeka. Kev is almost begging me to say this. Remember, the only team I did not hold season tickets to was the CHL Tarantulas. Am I a big Jrs fan, probably not. Could I learn to be? You put a fast skating, hard hitting, solid team out there and I will come. BUT, I dont fall in love with the players. I am after entertainment, not a long lasting love affair. Do I want to see the guys move on, become professionals, You Bet. But remember, I am paying season tickets to watch a sport, to be entertained. It takes all kinds of people to make a fan base. But not in Topeka. By example of this board you are in or you are out. Obviously I am out.
Sorry I dont view everything in your eyes, it must be awesome seeing things from your view only.

Crows Fan, Please don't take this the wrong way, but how would you known from the start the Tilt was a lost cause? We started dealing with them long before it became public. Like I said in my earlier post, we did call the WSHL Commissioner and looked into the team as a whole, we did our research. The Commisioner stated on more than one occasion the team was in good standing. Not only to us, but to HR Cook the Expo Manager as well, when he called to check on the teams references. The Tilt organization looked strong up until it absolutley fell apart. It only took about a week on the blogs and in the news for everything to come out. As a matter of fact Jon MacWilliams was in Topeka when everything down there did hit the fan. We were the ones that pointed it out to him, and were the first to speak to him about his problems. None of the things that came out on those blogs came out until after we were already into negotiations and very close to a deal. We were the ones to put the information in the Topeka Hockey forums. Luckily we were alerted by a friend about the mess down there before we got the deal signed. The friend that alerted us is also the same person that recomended the team to us and got us in touch with them. He didn't know anything about the mess either, or he wouldn't of recommended them. I am not aware of anything more we could have done. We did our research and stopped the negotiations as soon as we were alerted.
Trust me on this, we are thinking when we approach a team. We are thinking about the future of the City and the future of Topeka Hockey in general. I don't understand where you would think otherwise. We (Topeka Hockey '07) know we only have one chance at bringing Hockey back to Topeka. It is easy to look back with hindsight because you always see things clearer.

Old Crows Fan wrote:

I really dont know what more you want me to say. I would love to see hockey return to Topeka, what ever level as long as someone actually researched the team and found it as a viable product. What I saw from the Tilt from the start was a lost cause. Terrible attendance, and what I read on other blogs was they were to tank. I beleive people want hockey so bad in Topeka when someone like me says anything negative about hockey they are labeled that they never want to see hockey back in Topeka. Kev is almost begging me to say this. Remember, the only team I did not hold season tickets to was the CHL Tarantulas. Am I a big Jrs fan, probably not. Could I learn to be? You put a fast skating, hard hitting, solid team out there and I will come. BUT, I dont fall in love with the players. I am after entertainment, not a long lasting love affair. Do I want to see the guys move on, become professionals, You Bet. But remember, I am paying season tickets to watch a sport, to be entertained. It takes all kinds of people to make a fan base. But not in Topeka. By example of this board you are in or you are out. Obviously I am out. Sorry I dont view everything in your eyes, it must be awesome seeing things from your view only.

I guess I see that to be a bit different than what you said originally:

Quote:

Sorry to say, but I was disappointed to see this was another Junior hockey that is coming to Topeka. I have been with hockey from the start in Topeka and have held season tickets to all. When the USHL crows were here it just didn’t compare to the CHL. It is men against boys. I let my tickets set on my dresser and haven’t returned. The original Scarecrows were executed by their owner, not the Expo staff and definitely not the fans. It was packed and LOUD. The USHL came in and we got “host families” Oh my God, people that fall in love with kids playing hockey. This may work in some areas but Topeka is not one of them. You will see as in the past, if the product is going to be a bunch of 17 & 18 year olds out on the ice, fans would rather go watch high school basketball, football, soccer, baseball, softball, etc…etc… Oddly, the youth of the players is what the owners bank on. They want the host families to take the players in, for them to go to school and have friends. Then they can at least count on the host families and a portion of the high school kids to come and watch them on the ice. This too will fail I am sorry to say. So go ahead and beat me up all you local fans, I deserve it. But when the Tilt slides off the edge of Kansas take time to go support a local high school and watch a game or two. You may be surprised at the skill level you will see there for $4.

You say that you will support a team as long as it is a fast skating, hard hitting, solid team - that is exactly what you had with the USHL which you stopped attending. Now, when it came to the entertainment aspect to the game, I agree that the CHL is much better. You have more character guys on the team and more gritty, in your face style hockey. I don't disagree with that at all. However, if you did not think the USHL guys were fast enough or hit hard enough, then you are probably not going to like anything that can make it in Topeka.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again - junior hockey is not for everyone and that is fine. Some people don't enjoy watching that style of hockey and I don't expect them to support something they don't enjoy.

What I would ask is that if you don't want to support it, please don't try to run it down either. The day after this proposed move was announced, and before any of the negative information about the team's financial situation was known, you were already on here saying how this will never work, how disappointed you were that another junior team was coming back, bashing on host families, etc. I will admit that kind of got me ticked.

However, my questions of you were sincere, whether you want to believe that or now. I have come to find 3 different types of hockey fans in Topeka. There are those that will support any team that comes in, whether it be juniors or not. There are those that don't care for juniors and only want to support another professional team. And, again, there are those that have said they don't want anything coming back because it will just fail anyway.

You don't appear to fall into the third category, which I think is great. If you are in the second category, I think you are going to be disappointed for a long time, as I simply don't believe that a pro team can be financially viable in the Topeka market, but I would be more than happy to be proven wrong. Based on your initial post in this thread, I can't imagine you being in the first category, although your last post seemed to indicate that you would be willing to give juniors another chance.

I have no idea if you are in or out. If you are one of those fans that would refuse to consider supporting junior hockey, I think you will probably be on the outside looking in, because I don't think any professional teams will ever come back. However, it is your choice whether to be in or out when it comes to hockey in Topeka.

As for seeing things only my way, I have been trying to find out how you look at things and all you can do is rant and rave. Your last post answered a lot of the questions I had. It is tough to see things from someone else's point of view until they are willing to tell you what their point of view is.

I guess I went to the wrong USHL games. Not only did I not see hard hitting, I didn't see any hitting. That's why it didn't appeal to me.

There were a lot more hard hits than there were with the Tarantulas. Is that the Pro game you wanted to see? Not me. The CHL isn't like it used to be. Washed up old men that skated for beer money and free rent. Now it's young men with little future skating for beer money and free rent.

Hey MC I wanted to let you know I appreciate your post. Though we probably view hockey different ways we are both hockey fans. I really cant add anything to this board so I think I will move on. Kev will have to pin down Boog for making the negative comment about the USHL. Sorry I wont stick around Kev and argue each detail with you. You seem to be the type of person that just wants to needle people until they scream uncle or admit that you're our Lord and Savior. Hopefully as I exit you can take your energy and REfocus on landing a hockey team in Topeka. (Even if it is GASP.... a Junior Team) No need to post, quote me, or rehash my 30 other posts. I am gone and off to KC to assist in landing the Pens for the Sprint Cneter. But wait.... why would I need to tell you this, I am sure you are right in the middle of negotiating that contract too.

Old Crows Fan wrote:

Hey MC I wanted to let you know I appreciate your post. Though we probably view hockey different ways we are both hockey fans. I really cant add anything to this board so I think I will move on. Kev will have to pin down Boog for making the negative comment about the USHL. Sorry I wont stick around Kev and argue each detail with you. You seem to be the type of person that just wants to needle people until they scream uncle or admit that you're our Lord and Savior. Hopefully as I exit you can take your energy and REfocus on landing a hockey team in Topeka. (Even if it is GASP.... a Junior Team) No need to post, quote me, or rehash my 30 other posts. I am gone and off to KC to assist in landing the Pens for the Sprint Cneter. But wait.... why would I need to tell you this, I am sure you are right in the middle of negotiating that contract too.

If you consider my posts nothing more than needling you and trying to make you scream uncle, then I guess you simply don't have thick enough skin to hang around here anyway.

As for Boog, I disagree with him. I have disagreed with Boog on other stuff, and I have agreed with Boog on other stuff. The USHL did not appeal to him, which is fine. I thought there was more hitting in the USHL than in the CHL (certainly not more fighting, but more hitting). I don't see him running around trying to put down the prospect of a junior team though. Its funny how someone like Boog can have many of the same views as you and still manage to engage in discussions and debates on things without taking everything so personal.

As for Kansas City - good luck I hope an NHL team comes in. I have absolutely nothing to do with it, which I'm sure you know. As for Topeka, I was not directly involved in the contract negations, but I have been working behind the scenes to some degree in helping to bring hockey back to Topeka. Not as much work as Bucketman and MC, but still trying to help out here and there.

If you are leaving, fine. I'm not concerned with making you agree with me, I could care less. If everyone agreed with everyone else, this place would be as boring as the Thunder bunny board. I have taken offense at some of the slaps you have thrown around on here, and probably responded in kind. If you want to engage in a meaningful discussion of the future of hockey in Topeka I'll be glad to do it. Just let me know.

I just want to see hockey return to Topeka. We've been burnt with some shady owners and as a result I'm becoming somewhat cynical about that happening. If I had my druthers I'd choose a pro team. I know that's not very likely so I know our best chance is some sort of amateur league. If we happen to get another team they're really going to have to work to get me back on a fultime basis. It's going to take a special group to pull that off because each owner, or supposed owner, we've had was supposed to be the next coming and fit the mold. Unfortunately they were only moldy! I'm keeping my fingers crossed but I've also got my enthusiasm ratcheted way down.

DEAR OLD CROW FAN!

IF YOU ARE SUCH A FAN HOW IS IT THAT YOU ARE NEW TO THIS SITE MOST OFF US HAVE TREKED HERE FOR ALONG TIME AND YOU POP UP OUT OF NOWHERE!

ARE YOU NOT NEW?

JUST A NAME CHANGE MYABE?

I THINK MANY SUSPECT THAT!

NOT SURE WHO BUT SOME MAY THINK YOU ARE RAEBBUC???????

Re: DEAR OLD CROW FAN!

BUCKETMAN wrote:

IF YOU ARE SUCH A FAN HOW IS IT THAT YOU ARE NEW TO THIS SITE MOST OFF US HAVE TREKED HERE FOR ALONG TIME AND YOU POP UP OUT OF NOWHERE! ARE YOU NOT NEW? JUST A NAME CHANGE MYABE? I THINK MANY SUSPECT THAT! NOT SURE WHO BUT SOME MAY THINK YOU ARE RAEBBUC???????

I don't recall cubbear ever being opposed to junior hockey. I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Say Bucketman....

Is there a "magical number" of posts someone has to make before they are allowed to have an opinion, whether we agree with it or not?

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

Say Bucketman.... Is there a "magical number" of posts someone has to make before they are allowed to have an opinion, whether we agree with it or not?

I can't say for sure (when Bucketman is speaking, no one can say for sure), but I think if you read closely, you will see that he was more trying to get at his suspicion that Old Crow Fan was really a guy that has been around, but changed his screen name. I don't think it was as much of a "hey newbie, you can't have an opinion" as it was "hey cubbear, why did you change your screen name?"

I think he is wrong on his guess, but I don't think you quite got what he was trying to get at.

KEV

KEVGRAUB

You are correct sir!

How did you figure that one out?

A name spelled backwords who would have thought of that?