Tuscon relocating next season

Not a big surprise, given the rink issues in Tucson...

http://juniorhockey.blogspot.com/2006/11/topeka-tilt.html


Marc

Thanks Marc for all you did to make this happen. I promise we will take good care of this team. I hope the players won't mind playing in front of 2000+ fans a night. We should have 800-1200 season tickets sold before this season is done, and they aren't even here yet. We have talked to many civic leaders and they will do what ever is needed to make this team a success here. We already have more than enough host families and we are putting several on a waiting list and several businesses lined up for advertisments. This team is going to make a lot of money.

Congrats Topeka fans.

TS, let me know when you want to come up to see a game. Let us know what you think. I will make sure you have good seats. I might know someone that can help.

mctopeka wrote:

TS, let me know when you want to come up to see a game. Let us know what you think. I will make sure you have good seats. I might know someone that can help.

When the USHL was in Topeka, the team was labeled as something along the lines of high school hockey. Two minor pro teams tried the market and failed. What exactly makes you think the city will embrace JUNIOR B hockey to the tune of 2,000+ a night? Do you SERIOUSLY think anyone will actually need help getting good seats? Whoo Boy, what a hoot!

Me thinkst Landon Arena management prostituted themselves to the first group who showed interest.

First off... the fanbase in Topeka realized their mistake in rejecting the USHL. Also, there's a big difference between having no choice in hockey (Tilt) and having that choice shoved down your throat (USHL). Still, that 1,800 fans the USHL drew would be MORE than accepted by either the WSHL or the NAHL.

Marc

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

mctopeka wrote: TS, let me know when you want to come up to see a game. Let us know what you think. I will make sure you have good seats. I might know someone that can help. When the USHL was in Topeka, the team was labeled as something along the lines of high school hockey. Two minor pro teams tried the market and failed. What exactly makes you think the city will embrace JUNIOR B hockey to the tune of 2,000+ a night? Do you SERIOUSLY think anyone will actually need help getting good seats? Whoo Boy, what a hoot! Me thinkst Landon Arena management prostituted themselves to the first group who showed interest.

Me thinkst you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Landon Arena is giving pretty much the exact same lease that the teams have always gotten. They have also had numerous contacts over the past year about bringing a team in here, this one just seem the most committed to bringing a team to Topeka.

Its funny, most people seem to think the Expocentre is so incredibly impossible to deal with and charges such an outrageous price that no team will come here, and there is an entirely new breed that think the Expocentre has suddenly decided to prostitute itself out to get a team.

I think the 2,000 fans per game is a pretty high goal, but I think that 1,000-1,500 or so per game is very attainable immediately, and should grow from there. The vast majority of people in Topeka won't know the difference between the USHL and the WSHL, and most of those that do know the difference will support any team that comes here.

As for the minor pro teams failing - would you like to sit down and compare the annual operating budgets for a CHL team and a WSHL team? Or an NAHL team? The pro teams pulled about 3,000-4,000 fans per game, the USHL pulled about 2,000 fans per game, and if the new team can pull even half that they will be profitable.

There you go. This was a longer post but the gentlemen above said it better than I would have. Dumbass.

mctopeka wrote:

There you go. This was a longer post but the gentlemen above said it better than I would have. Dumbass.

Did you really mean to call me a gentleman?

Yes Kev I did. I must still be giddy over the announcement.

Hmmm... Sad but true

Sorry to say, but I was disappointed to see this was another Junior hockey that is coming to Topeka. I have been with hockey from the start in Topeka and have held season tickets to all. When the USHL crows were here it just didn’t compare to the CHL. It is men against boys. I let my tickets set on my dresser and haven’t returned. The original Scarecrows were executed by their owner, not the Expo staff and definitely not the fans. It was packed and LOUD. The USHL came in and we got “host families” Oh my God, people that fall in love with kids playing hockey. This may work in some areas but Topeka is not one of them. You will see as in the past, if the product is going to be a bunch of 17 & 18 year olds out on the ice, fans would rather go watch high school basketball, football, soccer, baseball, softball, etc…etc… Oddly, the youth of the players is what the owners bank on. They want the host families to take the players in, for them to go to school and have friends. Then they can at least count on the host families and a portion of the high school kids to come and watch them on the ice. This too will fail I am sorry to say. So go ahead and beat me up all you local fans, I deserve it. But when the Tilt slides off the edge of Kansas take time to go support a local high school and watch a game or two. You may be surprised at the skill level you will see there for $4.

mctopeka wrote:

Yes Kev I did. I must still be giddy over the announcement.

Giddy over what? Getting a hockey team TWO STEPS BELOW glorified high school hockey? Hats off to you then, I guess.

Marc is right in the differences between having a team shoved down your throat and having no choice in what you get. The USHL team's ownership made a poor impression upon their arrival and never recovered from it.

Yes, I do know the differences in operating budgets between a CHL team and a WSHL team. Junior B players PAY to play. It makes your team have to worry that much less about filling the facility. But, I'm wondering whether or not Tilt ownership's vision is clouded by the "Gee whiz, look at the big, shiny arena we get to play in" mindset, thinking they'll be so outrageously successful, that kids will be knocking down the doors to play there. Junior B is the road players take to get to the NAHL or the USHL. Those are the leagues players have to be in to be scouted with any regularity. If a Junior B player gets that good, he isn't going to be in Junior B for long.

I NEVER said Landon Arena management was impossible to deal with. And I may well be wrong in saying they prostituted themselves. But you said the lease they are "giving out" to "numerous contacts" is "pretty much the exact same lease that teams have always gotten" and that makes me ask:

A) Pretty much the same is NOT the same as exactly the same. What are the differences?

B) If lease terms being offered are that good, why has it taken this long to attract a POTENTIALLY SERIOUS tenant(To my knowledge, no lease has been signed yet)?

C) If lease terms being offered are that good, then why is only a JUNIOR B team seriously interested in playing there?

If those questions make me a dumbass, then fine, I'm a dumbass. But I think they are legitimate questions. Even you seem to doubt the 2,000+ per night mctopeka is guaranteeing. Just reread your last sentence.

All Junior leagues in this country are developemental leagues. Junior C for Junior B, Junior B for Junior A/Tier One and Junior A/Tier One for college. Look where Junior B is on that pecking order. Do you think the local media will be falling all over themselves in a rush to get credentials to cover this? The burden will then fall on team staff/management to put people in the seats(Where it should be anyway). They will have to be every bit as agressive as the CHL Scarecrows were in their glory days, just to get 1,000 people in the building. Remember, as has been proved all across the country, with one or two exceptions, like El Paso and Dubuque, Junior B is a tuition-based league, whose games are watched by "friends and family." Can Topeka also be an exception? Sure. But it will take even much more work to make it so than even an NAHL team would need to put forth. Do I expect Topeka to be an exception to the rule? No. I do not. Will I apologize if it is? I'll be the first.

People who know better, will see this level of hockey for what it is: JUNIOR B. Once the others take off their rose-colored glasses, they will see it for the same as well and wonder just what they were thinking.

I'm not sure everyone realizes exactly the path Topeka hockey has taken to this point. Here is a brief, and hopefully unbiased, history.

Jonathan Fleisig decided to bring a CHL expansion team to Topeka in 1998. The Shawnee County taxpayers did not agree to foot the bill for putting in the ice making equipment, buying the boards, etc. so the agreement was made that the team's cut of concessions and parking would be used to pay off those expenses, and once paid off the money would go to the team.

The CHL Scarecrows did very well initially. The team drew nearly 4,200 fans per game its first season, 5,000 fans per game its second season, and 3,800 fans per game its third season. During that third season, Fleisig had a major falling out with the CHL, which he claimed was based upon the league completely ignoring the salary cap, which resulted in him paying way more to field a competitive team than he was led to believe. Fleisig quit paying the league dues, the league shut down the team, Fleisig went to court and got an injunction to save the season, and it was one major mess. Fleisig also sold the team to Butch Johnson, who owned a couple other USHL teams and planned to change the Scarecrows to a USHL team.

The fans in Topeka felt like Fleisig was screwing them over and that the USHL was pushing the CHL out of town. The fans only knew the rough CHL style of play, and were not too thrilled about the USHL coming into town. The USHL folks pretty much stayed out of the whole debate, which turned out to be a very bad decision as incorrect information spread quickly around Landon Arena about the new USHL that was coming to town. Fans quickly heard (and believed) things like "The do not allow any fighting in the USHL" and "This is just high school hockey."

With no one around to tell them any different, Topeka soured on the USHL in a hurry and many "hockey fans" refused to even give the USHL a chance. Some did give it a chance, but preferred the rough and dirty style of the CHL they had seen for the first 3 years of hockey in Topeka. The USHL Scarecrows also did a very poor job marketing the team in a non-traditional market like Topeka. They essentially took the position that "If we put a quality team on the ice, and run the organization in a professional manner off the ice, the fans will eventually come out." That won't work in Topeka. The few promotions they had were boring, the players were not out in public enough, and the marketing generally kind of stunk. Another thing that hurt the attendance was that many of the diehard CHL fans preached that if the fans would just not support the USHL, then it would leave and the CHL could come back. More on that later.

By the second year of the USHL, attendance had dropped to about 1,700 (down from around 2,000 the year before) and Johnson sold the team to a group from St. Louis. Despite repeated assurances from the St. Louis group that they wanted to keep the team in Topeka, it became very clear that they were planning on moving the team to St. Louis, which was done before the 2003/04 season.

There was no hockey for the 2003/04 season. However, things started getting interesting prior to the 2004/05 season. Horn Chen (remember, the CHL initially stoof for the Chen Hockey League) sold the Indianapolis Ice to a guy in Indy that intended on moving the team to the USHL (he actually bought the St. Louis franchise, which moved from Topeka - irony is not lost on hockey in these parts), and had a CHL franchise to move somewhere. Around the same time, the Wichita Thunder (also owned by Chen) was having problems with their lease and were threatening to move for at least a year. Guess what, Topeka ended up with another CHL team, which many believe was mainly to keep open an option for the Wichita team if needed. The team was dreadful on the ice, invisible in the community for the most part, and had one of the worst front office efforts I have ever seen. The team not only played poorly, but the games were about as exciting as watching paint dry. Despite that, Topeka still drew about 3,000 fans per game. Topeka folded after one year in its return to the CHL, with the GM going to work in Wichita (and doing an amazing job down there). Many people, including myself, question whether Chen was at all committed to keeping Topeka going long term, but no one knows for sure. At any rate, the fans hoping for the return of the CHL got what they wanted, and went over about as well as a turd in a punch bowl.

So, no hockey for the 2005/06 season. No hockey for the 2006/07 season. However, a small group of Topeka fans led by Bucketman and MCTopeka started a group known as Topeka Hockey 2007 and began searching far and wide for a team willing to give Topeka an honest chance at making a team work here. Those two guys contacted everyone under the sun and work endlessly on finding someone to bring a team here. They had several good leads and a few teams taking a hard look at Topeka. With the help of Marc Foster, Topeka got hooked up with the Tucson group which seems to be a great fit.

Will Topeka ever see the 5,000 fans per game it once saw at Landon Arena? I kind of doubt it, at least not for many, many years. Will this new team draw the 3,000 fans per game that the CHL drew? Again, I kind of doubt it, at least not without a ton of work and a few years of building a fan base. Will this new team be able to draw enough fans to remain profitable while providing the 1,000 or so hockey fans in Topeka with something to watch live and providing the boys playing a great opportunity to continue to develop? I am pretty much convinced of it.

If this new team is willing to come in, work in the community, market the team, and stick around for the long haul, I think it will work out just fine. Some fans won't like the product, but that's fine. You can't please everyone. Topeka is simply too small of a market with too small of a hockey fanbase to support a professional team at this time. A junior team should work out just fine, especially one that does not carry the expenses that the USHL teams carry. With a few years of building a good fan base, it is hard to say what Topeka support, but there is more than enough support for a WSHL team right now.

Old Crows Fan, I'm not going to beat you up, you are entitled to your opinion. I was never into the Beer League, dump and chase, fight every shift, joke of a hockey team they called the CHL Scarecrows. Hell most of those players couldn't skate a whole shift with the USHL Players. It isn't men against boys, it's more like out of shape old men against in shape young men. I paid my money and went but I enjoyed the fast action and the hard hits and the HEART those USHL Scarecrows played with. I will take that anyday, and so will 1500(had to lower expectations a little) or so other fans. If you don't want to go, don't, that's your right. I will buy my 2 season tickets and go to most games if not all.

Good for you guys. Your committment to the sport is to be commended. I just hope there's enough of you to make it work.

Someone said recently on another forum I frequent that his town DESERVED a CHL team. Well, I disagree. No market deserves any team at any level. What a market does deserve though, is a team that will come in and treat it with the respect and dignity that PAYING CUSTOMERS deserve.

I just happen to think that Junior B hockey is not a solid option for a building the size of Landon Arena.

Re: Hmmm... Sad but true

Old Crows Fan wrote:

Sorry to say, but I was disappointed to see this was another Junior hockey that is coming to Topeka. I have been with hockey from the start in Topeka and have held season tickets to all. When the USHL crows were here it just didn’t compare to the CHL. It is men against boys. I let my tickets set on my dresser and haven’t returned. The original Scarecrows were executed by their owner, not the Expo staff and definitely not the fans. It was packed and LOUD. The USHL came in and we got “host families” Oh my God, people that fall in love with kids playing hockey. This may work in some areas but Topeka is not one of them. You will see as in the past, if the product is going to be a bunch of 17 & 18 year olds out on the ice, fans would rather go watch high school basketball, football, soccer, baseball, softball, etc…etc… Oddly, the youth of the players is what the owners bank on. They want the host families to take the players in, for them to go to school and have friends. Then they can at least count on the host families and a portion of the high school kids to come and watch them on the ice. This too will fail I am sorry to say. So go ahead and beat me up all you local fans, I deserve it. But when the Tilt slides off the edge of Kansas take time to go support a local high school and watch a game or two. You may be surprised at the skill level you will see there for $4.

I guess it depends on what you mean by fail. Will we see 5,000 fans per game? Nope. Will we see 1,000 fans per game? I think so.

I love hockey and I love watching it live in person. I would prefer to watch as high of a level as I can, but I also realize that Topeka will not support a professional team. I am willing to support whatever I can, and hope that others do the same. I would not be suprised if the new owners plan on moving to Junior A after a year or two if the support is there.

As for going to a local high school and watching a game or two, exactly which local high school has a hockey team I can go watch?

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

mctopeka wrote: Yes Kev I did. I must still be giddy over the announcement. Giddy over what? Getting a hockey team TWO STEPS BELOW glorified high school hockey? Hats off to you then, I guess.

I can't even count the number of steps the WSHL is above what we have right now in Topeka. I would prefer something like the NAHL or the USHL over the WSHL, but I am willing to support hockey in Topeka no matter what. Maybe if enough people do that, the team will have enough support to move up to a Junior A level in a year or two?

Quote:

Marc is right in the differences between having a team shoved down your throat and having no choice in what you get. The USHL team's ownership made a poor impression upon their arrival and never recovered from it.

You are absolutely correct.

Quote:

Yes, I do know the differences in operating budgets between a CHL team and a WSHL team. Junior B players PAY to play. It makes your team have to worry that much less about filling the facility. But, I'm wondering whether or not Tilt ownership's vision is clouded by the "Gee whiz, look at the big, shiny arena we get to play in" mindset, thinking they'll be so outrageously successful, that kids will be knocking down the doors to play there. Junior B is the road players take to get to the NAHL or the USHL. Those are the leagues players have to be in to be scouted with any regularity. If a Junior B player gets that good, he isn't going to be in Junior B for long.

Again, I completely agree. Although I think that the ownership group is right in thinking that they will be more successful in Topeka than they are in Tucson, where they are drawing 89 fans per game.

Quote:

I NEVER said Landon Arena management was impossible to deal with. And I may well be wrong in saying they prostituted themselves.

I was not including you in the group that think they are impossible to deal with. We have just hear that for years from people, and now we have people claiming that they are just whoring themselves out to get anything they can.

Quote:

But you said the lease they are "giving out" to "numerous contacts" is "pretty much the exact same lease that teams have always gotten" and that makes me ask: A) Pretty much the same is NOT the same as exactly the same. What are the differences?

I only know what I have been told, and that is that it is pretty much the same. If the lease is made public, I'll let you know what the differences are. One thing that the Expocentre has always said, and I don't believe it has changed now, is that it will not operate at a loss to subsidize a hockey team. The prior lease was pretty close to a break even point for the Expocentre, so I doubt that there are much, if any, major breaks in the new lease.

Quote:

B) If lease terms being offered are that good, why has it taken this long to attract a POTENTIALLY SERIOUS tenant(To my knowledge, no lease has been signed yet)?

Topeka's last team was here two years ago, and was the third team that failed, for various reasons. Topeka is not exactly in the heart of the hockey world. I think that the economics work out so that a NAHL team is about the highest level taht would work out in Topeka right now. Check around with some of the people involved in the NAHL and see if anyone thought Topeka was a viable market. I think you will find that more than one team thought Topeka looked good. I'm not sure if the lease is necessarily that great, but it is not bad either.

Quote:

C) If lease terms being offered are that good, then why is only a JUNIOR B team seriously interested in playing there?

Again, you are assuming that no Junior A teams showed any interest. I do not believe that is the case. I think the Junior B team came in and moved quickly to lock up a deal. Had this deal not worked out, it is very possible that a Junior A team might have come in for next year. The Expocentre was not going to turn the Tucson people away though in hopes of getting someone else down the line.

Quote:

If those questions make me a dumbass, then fine, I'm a dumbass. But I think they are legitimate questions. Even you seem to doubt the 2,000+ per night mctopeka is guaranteeing. Just reread your last sentence.

I did not call you a dumbass. I said you did not know what you were talking about when you said that the Expocentre was prostituting itself out to the first team that showed any interest, and I 100% stand by that statement. You have to take up the dumbass comment with the person who said it. I do question the 2,000+ number, but I don't think it is impossible. A lot will depend on how serious the team is about getting fans in the stands.

Quote:

All Junior leagues in this country are developemental leagues. Junior C for Junior B, Junior B for Junior A/Tier One and Junior A/Tier One for college. Look where Junior B is on that pecking order. Do you think the local media will be falling all over themselves in a rush to get credentials to cover this? The burden will then fall on team staff/management to put people in the seats(Where it should be anyway). They will have to be every bit as agressive as the CHL Scarecrows were in their glory days, just to get 1,000 people in the building. Remember, as has been proved all across the country, with one or two exceptions, like El Paso and Dubuque, Junior B is a tuition-based league, whose games are watched by "friends and family." Can Topeka also be an exception? Sure. But it will take even much more work to make it so than even an NAHL team would need to put forth. Do I expect Topeka to be an exception to the rule? No. I do not. Will I apologize if it is? I'll be the first.

Again, I don't disagree with much of what you say. I don't think that the WSHL will have to push any harder than the NAHL though. Like it or not, I bet only 10 people in Topeka even know the difference between the WSHL and NAHL. Junior hockey is pretty much foreign to Topeka, with the exception of the USHL. Again, if the team is serious about putting fans in the stands, I think they can hit 1,000-1,500 pretty easily the first year. If they want to remain tuition based, they can not push for fans and probably still hit 500 without any effort at all.

Quote:

People who know better, will see this level of hockey for what it is: JUNIOR B. Once the others take off their rose-colored glasses, they will see it for the same as well and wonder just what they were thinking.

I fully understand this is Junior B hockey. I would rather have a higher level. However, I would rather watch Junior B in my own hometown than drive 2 or 3 hours to watch something else. Topeka is not a town filled with knowledgeable hockey fans. It is a town with (1) a relatively small, but solid group of diehard hockey fans that will support any team they can, (2) a group of hockey fans that will probably turn their nose up at Junior B, and (3) a whole bunch of people that generally have nothing to do on a Friday or Saturday night and will go to a hockey game if they are entertained and have a good time, but don't know a thing about the level of hockey they are watching.

I'll tell you right now what I am think and what I will be thinking - "Cool, I get to watch live hockey again!"

Jrhockeyfan wrote:

I just happen to think that Junior B hockey is not a solid option for a building the size of Landon Arena.

I agree. That has me wondering if the ownership group intends on keeping the team at that level for the long haul. I think it is at least possible that this move is a sign that the team may end up moving up to Junior A in a couple of years.

I don't believe the team will stay Jr. B. more than 1 or 2 years.
I don't believe the team will be at the Expo more than 1 or 2 years.
Let's not forget Topeka Ice. The team knows about it and has talked to the Topeka Ice Board.
http://topekaice.com/
Don't quote me on this. I just have a feeling.

I would tend to fall into the old crow mold more than a Jr fan. Having said that, I've grudgingly come around to the ideas of jrs. I think they are our only viable option so I hope they make it and hope the team is able to move up to as high a level as possible. I think Kev's history of hockey in Topeka was pretty spot on. I think the USHL was probably the best option from the getgo but we got the CHL and I for one enjoyed it. My problem with the USHL 'crows is the way the CHL 'crows were badmouthed after they were gone. It wasn't the best way to try and develop a fan base. Saying it was goon hockey and the guys really couldn't play just didn't jive with me when I thought about players like Blair Manning and Peter Brearley to name a few. Anyway, I hope the new team makes it, and has realistic expectations. If they do maybe everything else will be moot. (a little lawyer lingo there for Kev )